STATEMENT
JANUARY 24, 1996

Q-My name is Karim Shabazz and I am an investigator hired by attorney Tracy Brandeis in the matter of Commonwealth vs. James Dennis.  We are presently in the office of Tracy Brandeis 42 S 15th St, Ste 314.  I would like to ask you a couple of questions.  Do you agree ?
A-Yes
Q-Did you understand that we went to that courtroom Supreme Court to retract your statement ?  Did you understand that ?
A-Yes
Q-Are you aware that we came late and she finished ?
A-Yes
Q-You are aware Ms Brandeis was waiting for us ?
A-Yes.
Q-However,  you did understand that we were going to meet with Ms Brandeis in an attemp to retract your statement ?
A-Yes.
Q-Why do you want to retract your statement ?
A-Because there are some things in the statement that are untrue.
Q-I would like you to give me a statement on the matter of Commonwealth vs. James Dennis.  Would you give me a statement ?
A-Yes.
Q-Are you being forced or threatened to give this statement to me?
A-No
Q-Are you giving this statement of your own free will and without the promise of anything ?
A-Yes.
Q-You did accompany me to the supreme court today ?
A-Yes.
Q-You accompanied me there today to retract this statement ?
A-Yes.
Q-That statement was given by you on November 8th, 1991 ?
A-Yes.
Q-You gave this statement to Detective Santiago ?
A-Yes
Q-When you were giving your statement on November 8th, 1991, you said some things that we will go over, why did you say these things if they were untrue?
A-The reason I was there was because I was arrested that night for an unrelated crime, and the police said if I gave them a statement they probably could help me.  After I was seen by the judge for my case, the Judge in the Roundhouse, they asked me to come upstairs to the Homicide Division..
Q-Is that the same Homicide Division located in the Police Administration Building?
A-Yes
Q-Tell me in your own words what they said to you.
A-We are taking you upstairs, its about your involvment in the Chedell Williams case. I said, 'I didn't kill anybody.'
Q-What did they say to that ?
A-They responded they don't know that.
Q-And then what ?
A-They let me sit there for 3 hours. Then five cops came into the room and started questioning me.
Q-Were all the plice officers asking questions at the same time ?
A-No. Two were questioning me.
Q-What did they ask you ?
A-They asked me was I there, was I there at the scene of the crime, where was I that night, was I harboring a gun for Mr Dennis, holding a gun for Mr Dennis, they just asked me if I knew Jimmy Dennis.
Q-Was it your belief that they were implicating you at this time ?
A-Yes
Q-Were you intimidated by those police officers?
A-Yes
Q-Were you scared ?
A-Yes.
Q-Were you handcuffed?
A-Yes.
Q-Were you handcuffed to a chair ?
A-Yes.
Q-Was that chair bolted to the floor?
A-Yes.
Q-Could you go anywhere ?
A-No.
Q-Were you told to go anywhere ?
A-No.
Q-Did the police tell you that if you did not cooperate with them that they would attempt to arrest you for being involved in Chedell Williams' murder ?
A-Yes
Q-Did they threaten to arrest you ?
A-Yes.
Q-At that point did you give a statement ?
A-Yes.
Q-Did you know anything of that shooting ?
A-No.
Q-Were you a witness ?
A-No.
Q-Did you know who did this shooting ?
A-No
Q-Did anybody tell you who did the shooting ?
A-No.
Q-Did you question Jimmy Dennis of the shooting.
A-No.
Q-Did he admit to you he did this shooting?
A-No.
Q-Did the police attempt to give you the impression that Jimmy Dennis did this?
A-Yes.
Q-Did they tell you that he did this ?
A-Yes.
Q-When the police officer came in how did you feel, were you handcuffed ?
A-Yes.
Q-What were you thinking ?
A-They may lock me up, and I was about to go away for a long time.
Q-Were you at that point under the impression that you were going to get charged with this murder?
A-Yes.
Q-At this point how did you feel ?
A-Afraid.
Q-What is your impression at that point that you would have given them anything they wanted to hear in order to get out of there?
A-Yes.
Q-The police didn't touch you, did they ? Tell me in your own words what they did to you.
A-They said, Motherfucker answer the question, you are never getting out of here. You are going to be here as long as we have you here for a couple of days. I was slouching, I was bumped several times, told to sit up, lifted by the shirt, handcuffed to the chair, and five (5) cops were around me and I was afraid they would beat the hell out of me while I was handcuffed.
Q-What if anything did they tell you they wanted to hear ? What did they want from you ?
A-They wanted me to say he told me that he killed her, that he actually committed the crime.
Q-What gave you the impression that they wanted you to say he killed her ?
A-The main question, that was the main question, didn't he tell you that he killed her, thats your boy, we know he told you.
Q-How did they get you to the point to give such a statement ?
A-After hours of being badgered, he went out and came back with paper and said answer these questions.
Q-Did you at any time say to them before he came in with the paper indicating okay, I would cooperate, I would cooperate?
A-No. After all the talking they did to me they just brought in the papers and said answer these questions.
Q-Mr T. when was the point that you decided you were going to lie?
A-There was a question that they had asked me
Q-When the detective was asking these questions at what point did you decide that you were going to lie and tell them what they wanted to hear ?
A-When he started asking me questions about seeing Jimmy at rehearsal.  I guess at that point I figured that I would just say what they wanted them to hear, and just get out and not be charged with anything.
Q-Charles, when you were saying the things that were not true, did in fact you know that they were not true ?
A-Yes.
Q-When you said these things were any of these things true ?
A-No
Q-I'm going to read you certain portions of your statement and I want you to tell me if they're trae (sic) Did you talk to Jimmy during rehearsal ?
A-I asked him if he'd heard about that girl.  And he said what girl ?  I said, the girl that got shot at the subway.  Jimmy said, what subway?'
Q-What (sic) that true?
A-Yes.
Q-Then you go on to say 'I said Jimmy, I heard you did it.'  Was that true ?
A-No.
Q-How did you know that wasn't true ?
A-Because I knew at that point that I was going to add in what the cops wanted to hear.
Q-Then you said in the statement on page 5 you were asked when Jimmy Dennis told you that he didn't have anything to do with the girls murder, did you believe him.  The answer says, I don't believe anything Jimmy tells me.  Is that what you said ?
A-No.
Q-What did you say ?
A-I don't believe anything anybody tells me unless I see it with my own eyes ?
Q-They wrote it down as you said that you don't believe anything Jimmy tells me, although you didn't say that ?
A-Yes.
Q-Did you see Jimmy as some sort of bullshitter con man ?
A-No.
Q-As a matter of fact, you and Jimmy were pretty good friends ?
A-Yes.
Q-Do you think that Jimmy was a bullshitter and you wouldn't believe anything he said ?
A-No.
Q-Why not ?
A-Because I was close with him, I knew him, he was upfront.  We didn't agree on our music sometimes but we agreed on everything else.
Q-How often did you see Jimmy.
A-Every day?
Q-How many hours ?
A-Five to nine hours a day, rehearsals everyday.
Q-On page 6 of your statement you said when asked have you seen Jimmy Dennis, Rodney Johns or Derrick with guns on the projects you answered comma, yes. Jimmy used to walk around with a 12 gauge and a 38 revolver silver is that part of your statement true ?
A-No. I don't even know what a 38 revolver looks like.
Q-My question to you is first of all, did you ever see Jimmy with a gun of any kind?
A-No
Q-Secondly, did you tell the police this ?
A-I see those guns on TV and hear their names on TV.
Q-And why did you pick out 12 gauge if you can recall ?
A-I heard people talk about it, I even know what it looks like.
Q-What was in your mind at that point for your (sic) to be saying things that were untrue if you never saw Jimmy with a gun ? And then you said you saw him with two guns
A-I just wanted to get out of there because they said I was a suspect and I figured I would take it back once I got out of there.  I figured I would take if back once I got out of there.  They were telling me before the statement that 'other people' had seen him with the guns, with two guns, a revolver and a shotgun.
   They told me to come on you saw him with them.  We have five statements that he has this type of gun and this type of gun and you saw him with this type of gun.  Didn't you ? You saw him with those guns, didn't you ?
   They had a stack of papers in there and they were acting like the papers are the five different statements.  That these people in the statements saw him with those guns, now they were saying to me, come on now you saw him with those guns.  At that point I was willing to agree with those 'other people' (who never existed but I didn't know that yet ) I just wanted to get the hell out of there and not be locked up.
Q-I'm asking you now under no pressure did you in your whole life ever see Jimmy with any guns ?
A-No.
Q-Testimony says, 'the night of the murder when you were at the rehearsal did you see any guns on Jimmy Dennis ?  A: Yes. I saw him with a silver 38, he pulled it out when we were outside. '   Charles, I ask you again, is this the truth?
A-No. The police said to me before they wrote down this question, the other people on the other statements, witnessed him flashing the gun, so I agreed with them.
Q-Do you know if Jimmy ever fired this gun ?
A-No. I never saw him with a gun.
Q-In court when you testified I am going to show you page 67, of the transcript where Mr King asked you if you had an open charge and whether anyone promised you anything about this open charge at the time you made this statement. And you said no.  Why was that ?
A-That open case didn't occur until months after the statement was given.
Q-You were asked were you expecting any help from this case ? You answered no.  Did you expect any help ?
A-Yes, I was expecting help.
Q-Why were you expecting help ?
A-Because I was helping them. Because Roger King said it would look good for me.
Q-Were you told at some time to see the District Attorney Roger King before trial ?
A-Yes.
Q-What if anything was your intention at that time ?
A-To recant what I said try to straighten it out .
Q-Why ?
A-It was in my conscious, I couldn't sleep and eat had get it out of my mind, it was like a monkey on my back.  I was thinking I can't do this I have to straighten this out when I go see Roger King.
Q-And when you went to see Roger King, did you recant it ?
A-No
Q-Why ?
A-Roger King said to me specifically that day that at this point in time nothing can be changed with what the statement said and he repeated it twice.  So then I really felt that I couldn't say anything.  I was intimidated by Mr King.  His expression, undescribable.  Right away he started to say I know you young boys and you all hang out with criminals.
Q-At trial Mr King said to you that when you saw Mr Dennis at the singing rehearsal did you see anything in his possession (page 60). And you answered no.  Were you attempting to tell the truth ?
A-Yes. I decided at that time that I needed to tell the truth, I needed to say what happened that night.
Q-And then Roger King immediately, aggressively impeached you with your statement (page  60-61).  But the statement was not correct ?
A-Yes.
Q-In fact Mr King entered that statement into evidence (page 66) then Mr King persisted further and at that point asked you if the gun that he had (which although the real gun was never found this gun in court was the gun that was used by the Prosecuter to show what the gun would have looked like ) the gun that Roger King had in court 'looked like the same gun that you saw Jimmy with and you answered. Yes. Was any of that true ?
A-No.
Q-At that point why did you say yes ? Why did you go back and forth ?
A-Scared, confused, mind boggling, terrified.
Q-So I ask, you lied on the stand because you were afraid as Mr King was impeaching you and getting you nervous after you tried to say the truth ?
A-Exactly, I was terrified.
Q-Have you ever at any time on any occasion anywhere ever saw James Dennis in possession or brandishing a gun (firearm).
A-No.
Q-So the statements you gave and the testimony given in court are untrue ? Is that correct ?
A-Yes.
Q-Are you willing to testify in court of law if there were to be a new trial or an evidentiary hearing on your retraction ?
A-Yes.
Q-Is there anything else that you can tell me regarding this matter ?
A-No.
Q-Is there anything else you wish to add to this statement ?
A-No.
Q-Are you willing to take a lie detector test to prove the truthful (sic) of this statement ?
A-Yes.

 END OF STATEMENT

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